2Aii: Can God Suffer?

Question 1

Natural Theology

Answer 1

the concept of God as understood in philosophical theology - ie what seems knowable through reason

Question 2

Revealed Theology

Answer 2

the picture of god that is shown in the Bible

Question 3

Divine Attributes

Answer 3

supposed qualities and characteristics of god as understood within classical monotheism

Question 4

Immutable

Answer 4

the belief that god is unchanging, as he is eternally perfect

Question 5

Impassable

Answer 5

the idea that god cannot suffer

Question 6

Protest Athiesm

Answer 6

the belief (inspired in part by the holocaust) that if god exists then he is not worthy of worship and should be rejected

Question 7

Docetism

Answer 7

the heresy that Jesus didn’t really have a human nature and only appeared to do so. thus it claims Jesus didn’t really suffer and die on the cross, but only appeared to

Question 8

Theology of Hope

Answer 8

traditional belief that Jesus’ resurrection brings the hope of eternal life

Question 9

Theology of the Cross

Answer 9

Moltmann’s focus on Jesus’ crucifixion being as significant as his resurrection. he argues that the church has lost sight of the awful horror of the crucifixion and has ‘sanitised the cross’

Question 10

Theology of Abandonment

Answer 10

part of Moltmann’s theology of the cross, focusing on how, in the crucifixion, god is divided from god

Question 11

Panentheism

Answer 11

the belief that the universe is the visible part of god. the idea that the world is ‘god’s body

Question 12

Why is the traditional philosophical idea of God seen as immutable and impassible?

Answer 12

• god is immutable because if he is infinitely perfect then he cannot change, because any change from perfection would make something less than perfect, which is impossible for god (linked with Aquinas and Augustine, therefore the influence of Aristotle’s idea of the unmoved mover)
• god is impassible because any emotional change contradicts his immutability (often associated with philosophical theology)

Question 13

Exodus 32v14 (shows god can feel emotion/can change)

Answer 13

“then the lord relented and did not bring on his people the disaster he had threatened”

Question 14

1 Samuel 15v11 (shows god can feel emotion/can change)

Answer 14

“I regret that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions”

Question 15

Matthew 9v36 (Jesus (god in human nature) feeling emotion and pain)

Answer 15

“when he saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd”

Question 16

John 11v35 (Jesus (god in human nature) feeling emotion and pain)

Answer 16

“Jesus wept”

Question 17

What is the name of Moltmann’s work?

Answer 17

‘The Crucified God’

Question 18

What does Moltmann argue?

Answer 18

that God CAN suffer

Question 19

Who is Moltmann?

Answer 19

a German theologian who argued that god suffers with humanity

Question 20

What are the traditional views of god?

Answer 20

• god cannot feel or suffer; he is impassable or apathetic (means “showing no emotion”). links to the view that god is immutable
• the trinity are separated by their function and not united in their feelings and experiences
• the question of how god can have his divine attributes is answered in a certain way by arguing that god needs to be true to himself and so cannot change, and feeling passibility involves change

Question 21

How does Moltmann argue against traditional views?

Answer 21

• god can suffer and did so on the cross
• god wasn’t just ‘looking on’ the crucifixion, but was involved in the suffering too
• the essence of god the father was included in the event
• the only way to understand the cross is through a theology of the trinity: god allowed the suffering and gave jesus the strength through the spirit
• the idea that all persons of the trinity are united in their feelings is what is most offensive to traditional theology
• Christian identity means solidarity with those who suffer just as god suffers with those who suffer

Question 22

Why might modern theologians want to challenge the idea of god’s impassibility?

Answer 22

• the world wars, holocaust, genocide and conflicts present a world in which god cannot be immune to suffering
• some people (eg Elie Wiesel) abandoned faith either because ‘god wasn’t there’ (atheism) or god was there, but did nothing so isn’t worthy of worship (protest atheism)
• however some believe that god was present there with the victims and knew their suffering and pain (challenges the idea of god as impassible)

Question 23

What are the central ideas in ‘The Crucified God’?

Answer 23

• arguing that god was in some way crucified on the cross
• the NT is making a startling claim about the nature and identity of god: a claim relevant to the world as well as giving Christians an identity
• “My god, why have you forsaken me?” is viewed as ‘abandonment on the cross’ ‘the cross of the son divides god from god’
• Jesus is part of the trinity so therefore a part of the trinity dies on the cross
• the son experiences rejection and the father suffers bereavement
• all of this adds up to a god who knows suffering and powerlessness

Question 24

According to Moltmann, how does the crucifixion of Jesus affect god the father?

Answer 24

• god experiences the ultimate agony of loss and grief
• this challenges the idea that god is immutable and impassible
• Moltmann sees this as a successful response to protest atheism. god doesn’t abandon us to our suffering (so this challenges the claim that he is unworthy of our worship)
• instead, god suffers with us. his boundless love means that he had chose to know and feel human pain

Question 25

According to Moltmann, how does the crucifixion of Jesus affect god the son?

Answer 25

• jesus experiences the ultimate agony of humiliation, pain and abandonment by the father and death
• this challenges the idea that god is immutable and impassible
• the crucifixion ‘divides god from god’
• god suffers with us. his boundless love means that he had chosen to know and feel human pain
• this challenges docetism; the heresy that Jesus didn’t really have a human nature and only appeared to do so

Question 26

According to Moltmann, how does the crucifixion of Jesus affect humanity?

Answer 26

• for much of Church history there has been a focus on how the resurrection of Jesus shows the theology of hope
• this is symbolised by the empty cross and the exuberance of easter sunday celebrations
• Moltmann focuses on the theology of the cross; that Jesus’ death is at least as significant
• on the cross, Jesus suffered with those who suffer and therefore identified with the poor and oppressed

Question 27

According to Moltmann, how does the resurrection ‘unite god with god’?

Answer 27

• the outpouring of love that comes from the resurrection brings forth the holy spirit
• Moltmann emphasises the love of god
• for Moltmann, the trinity is a relationship of love but gods love is so abundant he creates mankind so that they can live and be loved too

Question 28

According to Moltmann, what does it mean to be Christian?

Answer 28

• to be a Christian means to identify with the crucified Christ
• therefore Christians should also suffer and identify with the poor and oppressed
• in this way Moltmann’s theology starts to become a political theology

Question 29

Why does Moltmann argue that Christians don’t fully understand what the cross symbolises?

Answer 29

he believes the church has made the cross attractive by stripping it of its true significance. eg the Catholic concept of mass which denies the finality of Christ’s death, which Moltmann asserts happened once and for all

Question 30

Why does Moltmann say protest atheism has been ‘resolved’?

Answer 30

because on the cross, god protested against suffering in the death of the son

Question 31

What models of god did Moltmann say we should focus on?

Answer 31

God as victor, king and as a suffering victim

Question 32

Why do some argue that only the human nature of god suffered?

Answer 32

because if he had a divine nature, surely this could just remain unaffected? (docetism)

Question 33

Why does Moltmann believe Jesus experienced suffering fully?

Answer 33

because he believes Jesus was fully human and fully divine

Question 34

For Moltmann, what is the central image and message of the gospels?

Answer 34

the suffering and death of Christ

Question 35

What is the passion narrative?

Answer 35

the parts of the gospels that recount the arrest, trials, crucifixion and burial of Jesus

Question 36

Moltmann’s key points in the crucified god

Answer 36

• the book is a theodicy; a response to the problem of evil, that says we should not reject theism.
• the problem is resolved on the cross.
• the cross must be meaningful to those who suffer if it is to be relevant to the modern times
• however, the church has ‘sanitised’ the cross, and taken christ off it, losing its true meaning
• the church has turned the cross into a kind of glittering charm
• this is remote from the awful horror of the crucifixion and the death cry of christ in Matthew and Mark
• god can suffer. he is a “fellow sufferer’ who knows and understands human suffering
• Christ is god incarnate, part of the trinity. in christ, god suffered and died.
• Christian identity means identifying with the cross, and solidarity with those who suffer.
• this is the foundation of all Christian theology, more meaningful than tradition and dogma, or philosophical or moral principle
• by joining forces against oppression, Christians truly identify with the cross.
• the answer to atheists is that they have not actually rejected the god of Jesus, just the god of the church

Question 37

2 quotes from ‘The Crucified God’

Answer 37

• “a god who cannot suffer is poorer than any man”
• “a god who is only omnipotent is in himself an incomplete being”

Question 38

Positive implications if Moltmann’s assertions in ‘The Crucified God’ are accepted

Answer 38

-it recuses the idea of gods omniscience as it says even god knows what it’s like to suffer
- it recuses the idea of gods omnipotence because if god can do anything then god can suffer
- for Moltmann the cross is understood from a Trinitarian POV so it might help answer challenges like the criticism of penal substitution being like an angry father punishing his innocent son. all persons of the trinity are affected
- many believers would prioritise their ‘experience’ of god over philosophical conundrums. to them it seems to make sense that god has compassion for their suffering. also the bible seems to suggest that god cares about his creation and is involved with it
- Moltmann’s explanation of what it means to identify with the cross is a call to challenge oppression and make a positive difference to people’s suffering

Question 39

Negative implications if Moltmann’s assertions in ‘The Crucified God’ are accepted

Answer 39

• plays havoc with the idea of divine perfection, immutability and transcendence
• the theology of abandonment could suggest that the father and son are split apart. what does this mean for the doctrine of trinity? does it tip over into a sort of modalism/tritheism?
• some critics would say this is panentheism and that god is powerless to act in the world, this brings into question the idea that god is creator and saviour
• Moltmann makes many criticisms of the church

Question 40

Strengths of Moltmann’s theology

Answer 40

• god is no longer shown as glorious and powerful. he is the opposite of all worldly power, rule, glory, beauty, success, the things we boast about in our lives are all shown up as false
• in the crucified god, willing to be changed by human suffering, we see that god is really love. in seeing a God who suffers for love, we have been given an example of how to live for others: as sufferers for love.
• in seeing Jesus crucified, we have hope, because if he, judged as a criminal, was resurrected, so too can we. god has taken our side as the suffering god-man.

Question 41

Weaknesses of Moltmann’s theology

Answer 41

• how can god be the creator, if he is “in” creation, and affected by it? (panentheism)
• can such a god guarantee or offer us an eternal life, if he does not have the power to address pain in this life? how can god save us, if he is “infected” by the suffering and evil, so that it affects who he is in himself? he would no longer be perfectly good. he would no longer be free of evil himself.
• it redefines the trinity: the trinity is a unity - one in being - so if Jesus has lost his “being”, then god as trinity has lost god himself. Moltmann’s view means the immanent trinity (god in himself as three persons) is changed. the world now seems to have power over god.
• it makes god appear as different persons, the Father having to suffer in a different way from the son, which suggests tritheism (3 different gods)
• Jesus is the second , co-equal divine person of the trinity, so when jesus suffered, god did suffer.
• gods love is supremely kenotic and self humbling: how can we demand any more of his compassion? but for Moltmann, this is not good enough. god the father must suffer in himself. this view casts doubt on the real divinity of Jesus.
• the resurrection no longer matters: if the only thing that matters, is that god suffers as we do, and experiences death, then this suggests the resurrection does not really matter. it did not really change anything, and death and evil were not defeated, because death is now forever in god

Question 42

Who is Thomas Weinandy and what is the name of his book?

Answer 42

Roman Catholic scholar. book is called ‘Does God Suffer?’

Question 43

What does Weinandy argue in his book?

Answer 43

traditional view that god is impassible (incapable of suffering, so disagrees with Moltmann)

Question 44

What are 3 criticisms from Weinandy?

Answer 44

1. it doesn’t actually do much good to know that god suffered. if it only brings psychological comfort, that is a weak sort of help. when we call god our saviour, it is because we expect a real deliverance from this human condition. if all god can do is suffer, that helps no one
2. finding satisfaction in one’s suffering is perverse. if someone shows you compassion in your grief, their suffering does not make you happy. also gods suffering is not like ours, because god is not like us
3. Moltmann is wrong to think that god has to feel like us, in his divinity, to know our pain. gods knowledge does not have to be physical knowledge. gods knowledge of his creation is far more intimate and immediate than human awareness can recognise

Question 45

Moltmann’s criticisms of the Christian Church

Answer 45

clinging on an identity which alienated itself from the world and human suffering

Question 46

What were Moltmann’s thoughts on the way that Christianity views crucifixes?

Answer 46

he thought they didn’t acknowledge enough how horrific and offensive a symbol of the cross is. turning it into gold statues and pieces of jewellery misses the point

Question 47

How did Moltmann believe Christians should live if they are really to identify with the Christian message and be relevant in the world?

Answer 47

they should commit to the path of jesus by taking sides in political conflicts on behalf of betrayed humanity and suppressed freedom and thus have RELEVANCE to the world
- as a result, when they suffer they will have identified with what is central to the Christian message: a sense of abandonment is at the heart of god (Jesus felt abandoned on the cross)