The Existence of God and Revelation

Question 1

Define agnostic

Answer 1

• Belief that there is insufficient evidence to say whether God exists or not

Question 2

Define conscience

Answer 2

• Sense of right and wrong; seen ass the voice of God within our mind by many religious believers

Question 3

Name arguments in favour of God’s existence

Answer 3

• Teleological arguments (arguments from design)
• Cosmological arguments (arguments from a First Cause)
• Arguments from miracles

Question 4

Describe William Paley’s watch analogy (teleological argument)

Answer 4

• The mechanisms of the watch were so complex that we can conclude, there MUST have been a designer – a watchmaker
• The mechanisms of the universe are even MORE COMPLEX than that of the watch
• Therefore, the complexity of the world IMPLIES there must have been a designer – a universe-maker
• This intelligent designer was God

Question 5

What is the design argument?

Answer 5

• Also known as teleological argument.
• An argument purporting to prove God’s existence by focusing on evidence of design in the world, which therefore proves the existence of a designer – God.
• One version put forward by William Paley in the 18th century.

Question 6

What did Isaac Newton say about the Design Argument?

Answer 6

• Believed that the opposable thumb, which is only found in humans and some primates, gives the hand precise and delicate movement.
• This and the fact that each thumbprint is unique gave Newton the evidence he needed to believe in the Design Argument.
• He said “In the absence of any other proof, the thumb alone would convince me of God’s existence.”

Question 7

What did Aquinas say about the Design Argument?

Answer 7

• Also supported the Design Argument
• Arguing that only an intelligent being could keep things in the universe in regular order.
• The planets, sun, moon and stars rotate in the solar system in a set pattern because God holds them in place.

Question 8

What did FR Tennant say about the design argument?

Answer 8

• Argued that God designed the world so that everything was right for humans life to develop.
• He said that if things like the strength of gravity and the power and speed of the explosion caused by the Big Bang had been just a tiny bit different, then life would not exist.
• Everything is so finely tuned it appears to be deliberate.

Question 9

What do Muslims say about the design argument?

Answer 9

• God created humans to serve him
• He created order in the world and put humans in charge of creation, the world is so well ordered and balanced to sustain life
• It is beautiful and has complex independent parts and it must have been designed and only God is able to do this

Question 10

What are the strengths of the design argument?

Answer 10

• It makes sense to say that God is the great designer because the world is very complex and God is thought to be omnipotent
• It explains that fact that there does seem to be design and purpose in the world
• Helps give answers that science can’t give us yet
• For theists, it allows space for God in the Big Bang

Question 11

What are the weaknesses of the design argument?

Answer 11

• It is not a perfect design because of natural disasters and suffering all around us - iIf the world was designed by God, surely He would have designed it without including suffering
• The world does not have to have been designed, the apparent design could be explained by natural selection
• Evolution explains how thumbs and the eye appear to be designed
• There are so many planets in the universe that it is inevitable that one of them would be perfect for sustaining life. This isn’t design, just chance.
• The order in the universe, necessary to support life makes it look as though it is designed when in fact the order and structure in nature is imposed by humans

Question 12

Quote to support the Design argument

Answer 12

• “In the beginning, God created the Heavens and the Earth.”

Question 13

What is the first cause argument?

Answer 13

• Also called cosmological argument
• An argument purporting to prove God’s existence by logical argument that everything is caused by something else.
• This requires an uncaused cause, which must be God.
• One version put forward by Thomas Aquinas in 13th century.

Question 14

What did Aquinas state about the First Cause argument?

Answer 14

• As nothing we observe today can cause itself to exist:
  1. There must be an infinite chain of effects preceded by causes or
  2. There must be a first cause which by definition must be uncaused
• Aquinas believed that 1. was impossible so 2. must be true and the first cause was God
• Everything that exists or begins to exist must have a cause.
• The universe exists so it must have a cause.
• There had to be something eternal that was not caused by anything.
• The eternal first cause is God.
• Therefore, God exists.

Question 15

Describe the First Cause argument

Answer 15

• Premise 1: Everything in the universe has a cause.
• Premise 2: The chain of cause and effect cannot go on forever.
• Premise 3: Therefore, there must be a first cause which is uncaused.
• Conclusion: This must be God.

Question 16

What did Muslim philosophers argue about the First Cause argument?

Answer 16

• The difference between the universe and God is that the universe has a starting point and God does not
• Everything that has a starting point has a cause of its existence
• The cause of the universe is God, who is eternal and therefore does not need a cause to exist

Question 17

What are the strengths of the First Cause argument?

Answer 17

• Helps give answers that science can’t give us yet
• For theists, it allows space for God in the Big Bang
• Gives us an answer for how we came to be here

Question 18

What are the weaknesses of the First Cause argument?

Answer 18

• Contradiction – if everything has a cause, what caused God?
• Why can’t the universe be eternal?
• Perhaps the Big Bang was random and uncaused
• If God is eternal the universe can be eternal
• Religious creation stories about how God brought the universe into being are myths, story is spiritual

Question 19

Evaluate the three premises of the First Cause argument

Answer 19

• Premise 1: Perhaps there are things that don’t have a cause?
• But if there are we haven’t found a cause yet
• Premise 2: Perhaps there is no start to the chain?, Some people say infinity is not possible.
• Premise 3: The first cause must have had a cause, But the first cause is uncaused and therefore doesn’t require a cause.

Question 20

Evaluate the conclusion of the first cause argument

Answer 20

• Inductive leap
• There was a first cause- the Big Bang.
• Why does the first cause have to be God?
• Only God could be uncaused because only God is the concept of a being which is eternal and doesn’t need a cause.
• Perhaps God caused the Big Bang?

Question 21

Define a miracle

Answer 21

• A seemingly impossible event, usually good, that cannot be explained by natural or scientific laws and is thought to be the action of God.

Question 22

What are the two types of miracles?

Answer 22

1. Events that break natural laws and cannot be explained by science.
2. Happy coincidences in which no natural laws are broken but a coincidence occurs at just the right moment.

Question 23

Give an example of a miracle that breaks natural laws

Answer 23

• Feeding of the five thousand

Question 24

Describe Jesus’ feeding of the five thousand

Answer 24

• “They all ate and were satisfied, and the disciples picked up twelve basketfuls of broken pieces of bread and fish. The number of men who had eaten was five thousand.”

Question 25

What do Christians believe about God and miracles?

Answer 25

• Christians believe God works in the world through miracles and that Jesus performed miracles to show the power or love of God.

Question 26

What are the arguments for miracles?

Answer 26

• Theists argue that if there is no scientific explanation for an event, then it must be supernatural, in other words, caused by something outside nature.
• Since only God is outside nature, then it must be the result of God’s intervention in the world.
• Theists would argue that miracles prove the existence of God because He is the only being that is outside nature and powerful enough to perform them.
• Some atheists convert to Christianity because of a miracle. * Many Christians believe that miracles still happen and there have been 69 recognised miracles at the pilgrimage town of Lourdes.
• Therefore God exists.

Question 27

What are the objections to the arguments for miracles?

Answer 27

• Lucky coincidences?
• Scientific explanations not yet discovered?
• Miracles healings due to mind over matter
• Miracles are fake/made up
• Theists – suggests a partisan God who has favourites.
• Why does he not intervene in natural disasters?
• Some argue miracles would remove the need for faith.
• However, not all Christians believe God performs miracles.
• If God performs miracles, then it means that he picks and chooses who to help.
• Why would he allow children to die in war or from cancer?
• Why not stop the Holocaust?
• A God who allows these things and decides not to intervene isn’t very loving.
• For some Christians, God is loving, he just can’t intervene in our world.

Question 28

What are the strengths of the arguments for miracles?

Answer 28

• Shows theists that God intervenes in our world
• For some theists, it shows that God answers prayer
• Shows that God is powerful

Question 29

What are the weaknesses of the arguments for miracles?

Answer 29

• Why does God not perform miracles for everyone who asks for it?
• Just because we can’t explain ‘miracles’ now doesn’t mean we won’t in the future
• Not all claims of miracles are true – some may be made up or delusions or wishful thinking.

Question 30

What did David Hum state about miracles?

Answer 30

• Miracles deny the laws of nature but there can never be enough evidence to prove his can happen
• Witnesses to miracles are unreliable as most of them are uneducated, primitive people
• Religions depend on miracles to prove they are true but all religions cannot be right

Question 31

What are the Christian responses to miracles?

Answer 31

• Christians view miracles as devices of God’s existence and work in the world - the fact that some people convert to Christianity after miracles is seen as proof of existence
• Jesus worked many miracles, e.g. healings, bringing dead back to life
• Jesus incarnation and resurrection considered most important miracle
• Lourdes is recognised by the Church as a place where miracles occurred - 69 recorded

Question 32

What are the Muslim responses to miracles?

Answer 32

• Belief in miracles is not a strong argument for God
• Supreme miracle in Islam is the revelation of the Qur’an to Muhammed, no human could write such a book without God’s intervention
• Muslims do not see most miracles as important - some religious experiences can be seen as miracles but are individual cases - Muhammad’s ascent into heaven

Question 33

State the arguments against god’s existence

Answer 33

• Evil and suffering
• Arguments from science

Question 34

Define moral evil

Answer 34

• Takes place when people do cruel things for others
• e.g. theft, murder, assault.

Question 35

Define natural evil

Answer 35

• Takes place when suffering is caused by nature
• e.g. earthquakes or diseases.

Question 36

Does the amount of evil and suffering prove there is no God?

Answer 36

• Religious believers believe that God: omniscient, all-loving, omnipotent
• So why is there evil and suffering?
• Many Christians struggle to understand how a God who has these qualities can allow evil and suffering to exist and this is a real problem for their faith.

Question 37

How do Christians explain the problem of evil?

Answer 37

• Suffering is a punishment for wrong-doing
• Suffering is a test of faith which if passed can achieve great reward from God
• Suffering is needed as a balance- we cannot appreciate good without being able to recognise evil.
• Suffering must be accepted as something that we cannot understand.
• Suffering is a form of education for our souls which allows us to grow spiritually.
• Suffering means people can mistakes and learn from them
• The Free Will defence, Adam was given free will, if God constantly intervened then we would have no freedom
• For Christians, the most important thing is how we can respond positively to suffering , whether it be ourselves or others.

Question 38

What are the Muslim responses to the problem of evil?

Answer 38

• God allow evil but he doesn’t will it - he has reasons for allowing it that humans cannot know
• Shaytan was given the job of testing people faith and character through suffering - God does not allow more suffering than a person can bear

Question 39

What are the strengths of the Inconsistent Triad?

Answer 39

• Even if we are responsible for suffering towards others, natural suffering is out our control, which argues against a designer
• If God made us, then he made us with the capability to hurt others

Question 40

What are the weaknesses of the Inconsistent Triad?

Answer 40

• God gave us free will and we do more good than bad in this world * It’s only when we suffer do we realise the good in our lives
• It is up to us, not God, to stop evil and suffering

Question 41

Quote for problem of evil

Answer 41

• “The work of Satan… cannot harm in the least, unless God permits it. Let the believers put their trust in God”

Question 42

What are the arguments based on science against the existence of God?

Answer 42

• Some atheists believe that developments in scientific knowledge challenge belief in God.
• Science can give us reliable explanations, supported by evidence & fact, for a lot of things previously credited to God e.g. creation.
• We no longer ‘need’ God to explain how we got here.

Question 43

What are the Christian responses to arguments based on science?

Answer 43

• Many Christians don’t have a problem with science and don’t see it as being in conflict with their beliefs (the Bible)
• God gave humans intelligence to learn more about his creation - it is important to do so because it gives a clearer understating of God and science revealed the laws by which God created the universes
• Most Christians accept that the world was created by the Big Bang, not God.
• His is supported by Pope Francis (the leader of the Roman Catholic Church) who said in 2014, “The Big Bang does not contradict the divine act of creation.”
• Some Christians see scientific development as a way of learning more about life on earth, which also deepens their relationship with God
• Some Christians reject evolution because they take Genesis literally, and some Muslims reject it because humans re a special creation of God

Question 44

Describe the Scientific Origins of the Universe

Answer 44

• Science has one main theory about the way the universe began- the Big Bang Theory.
• This states that the universe began in a gigantic explosion about 14 billion years ago.
• The universe is both expanding and accelerating – doppler effect.

Question 45

Describe Charles Darwin’s Theory of Evolution

Answer 45

• In 1869 Charles Darwin came up with his theory of evolution. He wrote a book called ‘On the Origin of Species’.
• He said that the different species in the world hadn’t always existed in the way that we see them today.
• They had, he said, gradually adapted to their environment over time.
• He said the strongest plants and animals survive and the weakest die. This is called natural selection or the survival of the fittest.
• His theory of evolution is now widely accepted by scientists as a way of explaining how humanity came into existence.

Question 46

How we can “know” god?

Answer 46

• God as personal or impersonal
• Through revelation

Question 47

Define revelation

Answer 47

• God showing himself to believers

Question 48

Define special revelation

Answer 48

• God making himself known through direct personal experience or an unusual specific event eg. visions.

Question 49

Define general revelation

Answer 49

• God making himself known through ordinary, common human experiences, for example, nature, Scripture.

Question 50

Define visions

Answer 50

• Seeing something especially in a dream or trance, that shows something about the nature of God or the afterlife.

Question 51

Define enlightenment

Answer 51

• Gaining of true knowledge about God or self usually through meditation or self discipline.

Question 52

Quote for revelation

Answer 52

• “When there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, reveal myself to them in visions, I speak to them in dreams.”

Question 53

What is general revelation?

Answer 53

• Not everyone receives a direct, personal message from God (special revelation).
• Many people come to know God through general revelation, that is through ordinary, everyday human experiences.
• General revelation comes to people through seeing God’s presence in nature or though a person’s reason, conscience or sense of right and wrong.

Question 54

Give examples of general revelation

Answer 54

• Nature
• Scripture
• Reason
• Worship
• Morality
• Conscience

Question 55

Describe general revelation in the Bible

Answer 55

• All Christians believe that the Bible is in some way ‘their’ book.
• It tells the story of God’s dealings with the world, through the creation, the sin of humanity, God’s revelation of Himself to the world and God’s plan for the ultimate redemption of the world in Christ.
• Most of all, there are books which tell Christians about the life, ministry, death and resurrection of the One whom they consider to be the pivot on which the history of humankind turns, Jesus of Nazareth.
• For this reason, all Christians can call the Bible sacred and inspired.
• It is what they mean by these words that differ….

Question 56

Describe the literalist view of the authority of the bible

Answer 56

• Many Protestant and Evangelical groups adopt a literal interpretation of the Bible and think that it contains God’s actual words which must not be changed or questioned.
• There can be no error, theological, historical or cultural. The Bible is often called ‘The Word of God’ by people who hold this view.

Question 57

Describe the liberal view of the authority of the bible

Answer 57

• The liberal view of the Bible sees it as inspired by God but able to be interpreted for people today.
• The text provides insights into God but it needs to be seen in its social context and historical time. * A liberal theologian would feel free to make judgements on the practice and attitudes found in the Bible.

Question 58

Describe Muslim views about the authority of the Qur’an

Answer 58

• Actual word of God revealed directly to Muhammed
• Readers can feel God’s presence in the word that they are reading because the words have hidden depths
• Power of words so strong that people comets believe in the faith just by reading or hearing them

Question 59

What do theists believe about religious scripture?

Answer 59

• Religious scripture tells theists what God is like, how God acted in the past and how God wants people to live.
• The Bible is divided into the Old and New Testaments.
• Old Testament: The covenant between God and the Jewish people
• New Testament: the life and teaching of Jesus, the spread of early Christianity
• The Bible also contains poetry, myth, history, law, letters and prophecy.

Question 60

Why may the bible not be accurate?

Answer 60

• They also believe that while the text can provide insight into God’s character, it should be understood in its social and historical context.
• However, the Bible was written by different humans, and it contains errors.
• It was also written over a long period of time, translated from a variety of languages into all the languages spoken around the world.
• It was also written before we knew a lot about our world e.g. Creation/Big Bang and therefore may not be accurate.

Question 61

What does nature tell us about God? (general revelation)

Answer 61

• This is the way that most people experience God.
• The beauty and order of the natural world can suggest that God has designed an amazing world for our benefit.
• From nature, we can see that God is:
• Powerful: Can be seen in the power of storms
• Complex: The detail in the human body
• Loving: Creating a world that enables us to thrive
• Caring: the wonder of a new born baby

Question 62

How does general revelation in nature affect people?

Answer 62

• This can give people a sense of awe and wonder about God as it can make them feel like God is such a powerful supreme being.
• It can also make people feel that God is clever or artistic when they experience different elements of the world and appreciate its beauty.
• Even an atheist can feel a sense of awe and wonder about the planet, they just won’t attribute it to God.

Question 63

Quote for general revelation in nature

Answer 63

• “The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.”

Question 64

What are the arguments against general revelation?

Answer 64

• Nature - Atheists and humanists may argue that observing nature does not provide a greater understanding of God but can lead to a greater scientific truth
• Scripture - For atheists the writing in scripture are merrily the authors opinions, the words reveal nothing about God

Question 65

How can God’s omnipotence be understood through revelation?

Answer 65

• This enables God to do things that humans cannot do.
• It also means that God can do things we cannot understand nor replicate
• Most people understand it in a way that means God can do everything, which is why he is considered to be the Designer of the Universe and First Cause.

Question 66

How can God’s omniscience be understood through revelation?

Answer 66

• God knows what is going to happen in the future – for some this makes them question
  whether God has the power to stop bad things happening e.g. the Holocaust
• God knows every little thing humans do – for Christians, this then has an impact on the afterlife
• This also emphasises the idea that God is omnipotent

Question 67

How can God being personal be understood through revelation?

Answer 67

• People who believe that God is personal believe that God has human characteristics, like merciful or compassionate
• They also believe that God knows and loves every individual
• When they pray, they believe that God can hear them and answer them

Question 68

How can God being immanent be understood through revelation?

Answer 68

• This generally refers to God as Jesus and as the Holy Spirit
• God can influence what goes on e.g. perform miracles
• If a Christian believes that God is immanent, they will believe that he will listen to their prayers and possibly respond

Question 69

How can God being transcendent be understood through revelation?

Answer 69

• This generally refers to God the Father
• As God is a supreme being, he is not bound by time and space, like we are.
• This supports the idea that God is eternal
• It also means that God does not intervene in the world or in the lives of people who pray to him

Question 70

Can God be immanent and transcendent, personal and Impersonal?

Answer 70

• Even though God is the eternal, unlimited creator of the universe (transcendent and impersonal), theists can have a personal relationship with him (immanent and personal).
• Christians believe God is personal because he allows followers to join in a relationship with him, described as a Father who loves and cares for his children. This relationship is enabled by prayer.
• For Christians, God’s immanence is revealed both in Jesus, who they believe is God made man, and also in the work of the Holy Spirit.
• God is omnipotent, omniscient and beyond human understanding, but as the Qur’an says, he is also close to people.
• Muslims have 99 Beautiful Names of God which all describe qualities God has revealed about himself.
• Despite all this, God remains a mystery beyond human understanding.
• Muslims stress the one-ness of God (Tawhid) and that he has no equal. Images of him are forbidden.

Question 71

Quotes for God’s qualities

Answer 71

• “He is with you wherever you are” - Qur’an
  …

Question 72

Give examples of special revelation

Answer 72

• Joan of Arc
• St Paul
• Muhammad
• The Virgin Mary
• Bernadette Soubirous
• Teresa of Avila
• The apostle Peter
• The prophet Isaiah
• The Buddha
• Guru Nanak

Question 73

Name types of special revelation

Answer 73

• Dream
• Hearing God’s call
• Miracles
• Visions
• Prophecy

Question 74

What is a vision?

Answer 74

• This is a form of special revelation that comes in picture or image form.
• People see holy people angels or hear messages from God.
• A vision holds a deep meaning for the person receiving it and enables them to become aware of reality in a new way or with a new intensity.
• The Bible teaches that people who were given visions and dreams for specific reasons.

Question 75

Describe Saul’s special revelation

Answer 75

• Saul was a well-known persecutor of Christians.
• He was on his way to Damascus with a group of other men.
• On his way there, he suddenly saw a great light from the sky and heard a voice saying, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
• The voice belonged to Jesus and told him to carry on with his journey and that once he got to Damascus, he would be told what to do.
• Saul was completely blinded by the light and could not see for three days.
• Saul’s sight was restored by Ananias on the instructions of God.
• Saul was then baptised and began preaching to people to follow Jesus.

Question 76

Why is revelation important?

Answer 76

• Without it, they would have significantly less knowledge about God.

Question 77

What is the value of revelation?

Answer 77

• Provide theists with proof of God’s existence
• Help start a religion
• Enable believers to have a relationship with the divine
• Help people to know what God wants
• Help people to understand the nature of God (what God is like) e.g. omnipotent, benevolent
• Give religious people knowledge of the rules that God wishes them to follow
• Make individuals aware of the purpose that God has for them
• Enable people to understand the greatness of God and to experience awe and
  wonder
• Change people’s lives for the better, for example as Saul was transformed from
  persecutor into evangelist
• Give people strength to face difficulties in their lives

Question 78

Describe Buddha’s experience with enlightenment

Answer 78

• The Buddha experienced enlightenment in the form of receiving knowledge about the reality of life, namely rebirth and how suffering can be ended.

Question 79

Describe the belief about enlightenment in religions

Answer 79

• Many Buddhists, particularly monks/nuns live their life in pursuit of enlightenment, however it can take many 1000s of lives to achieve it.
• In Hinduism, one of the paths to moksha (liberation from samsara, the cycle of life, death and rebirth) and unit with Brahman, is enlightenment. As a result, some Hindus spend their life studying divine truth.

Question 80

What are the problems of different idea of the divine arising from these experiences?

Answer 80

• Different people have very diverse experiences of the divine. * For example, the Buddhist beliefs in Nirvana and enlightenment that are experienced through meditation is very different than the Christian belief in an all-powerful and benevolent God.
• For some people, these contradictions are proof that religious experiences aren’t real.
• One of the most important elements of general revelation in Christianity, the Bible, is interpreted in many different ways by different people.
• This gives different Christians contradictory ideas about what God wants from them.
  E.g. Catholic and the Protestant views on abortion.

Question 81

What are the alternative explanations for these experiences of revelation?

Answer 81

• People who claimed to have them were lying or mistaken for money, attention or fame
• The effects of drugs or alcohol
• A result of mental illness
• A delusion caused by people desperately wanting to see or experience something
• The impact of physical challenges such as illness, exhaustion, dehydration etc., which can lead people to have hallucinations or to confuse dreams with reality

Question 82

How can we tell whether religious experiences are real?

Answer 82

1. Did the experience have a significant positive impact on the individual? E.g. the case of Saul, who completely changed his life or the example of John Pridmore, who went from being a criminal to preaching to people about Christ.
2. Does the experience fit with other people’s experiences of God or of the divine? If it is similar to other people’s experiences then it seems more likely that it is accurate.
3. Did the experience fit with common religious beliefs, e.g. showing God as benevolent or showing a significant person such as the Virgin Mary? If so, then it seems more likely that it is accurate.
4. Is there further evidence to support the experience? E.g. when Bernadette saw the Virgin Mary at Lourdes she was told to drink from a spring. If the water from this spring can be proven to heal people then it seems more likely that Bernadette really did experience something.
5. Did the experience make an atheist or agnostic believe in God? E.g. Saul converting to Christianity having previously persecuted Christian

Question 83

Questions posed to argue against revelation

Answer 83

1. Does their revelation match the real world
2. Does it fit with other revelations acknowledge to be correct in a religion?
   3, Does it change a non-believe into a believer or convert?
3. How is it that different religions have different revelations? They can’t all be correct

Question 84

Religious responses the whether revelation can be proved

Answer 84

1. It is probably unlikely if it claims that people can fly. If it claims that water in a holy place can cure, and it does, then it is more likely to be a real revelation.
2. If it contradicts the long-held belief of a religion, it is less likely to be a true revelation. However, beliefs may change over time (e.g. about slavery) so this is not always the case.
3. Cat Stevens was raised in a Christian family and found fame as a singer and songwriter in the 1960s and 70s. He used drugs and alcohol and while he was in hospital his brother gave him a copy of the Qur’an, which he studied carefully. As a result of his revelation he became a Muslim, changed his name to Yusuf Islam, gave up his music career and became strongly involved in the Muslim community.
4. Nicky Cruz was the leader of a gang in New York in the 1950s. He led a life of brutal violence until he met a street preacher who converted him to Christianity. He eventually became a minister in his old neighbourhood.
5. Different religions are different paths to the divine chosen by different people. Within a faith there are different interpretations of sacred texts and how these apply to moral issues. If a particular interpretation disagrees with another verse in the Bible/ Qur’an it is likely that the interpretation is questionable.